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Monday, February 22 Episode Discussion
Topic Started: Feb 21 2016, 08:17 PM (12,764 Views)
cord08
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esp13
Feb 22 2016, 11:10 PM
AngelaP
Feb 22 2016, 11:05 PM
esp13
Feb 22 2016, 10:52 PM
It's not about being fierce or not. She said no, she tried to leave. He pushed her down on the couch and raped her. Once she said no, everything else is irrelevant.

It is absolutely shocking to me that in this day and age, people are still saying "but she didn't fight back" or even "I wish she would have fought back." She said no and he forced her. That's ALL that matters.
I don't feel like there's anything wrong with me saying "I wish they had written her to (Mike Tyson) fight back" especially with how I compounded that statement in that post. I didn't in the least imply that the lack of that meant she wanted it, asked for it, let it happen, etc by not fighting back. It's simply a beat I would have liked to have been scripted in.

Re: Fierce. I was simply putting out that a person you could see fighting tooth and nail in a situation like that could just as easily freeze in the situation as a person you would describe as meek. Vice versa, it is irrelevant - fighting/freezing. I didn't say it wasn't.
ETA - if the discussions being had on this board about Ciara and even Steve aren't evidence that this country hasn't come close to dealing with its rape culture then I don't know what is. And it definitely proves that storylines like Ciara's are still needed and still relevant.
Agree 100%. I was against this story idea (and still am not fond of it), but reading some of the comments has made me realize that well-written stories like this are still needed. I was trying to craft such a response earlier in this thread, but didn't post because I couldn't get the wording just right. So, thank you.
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lysie


AngelaP
Feb 22 2016, 11:26 PM
lysie
Feb 22 2016, 10:51 PM
I think it's kind of a weird story beat to comment on liking or not liking because you're not really supposed to like it (and I get what you're saying, and it's not really this). I think they're doing a good job with it so far, but it could definitely go badly at any point. Ultimately, I think it has accomplished something that a lot of teen stories don't. It's actually about Ciara AND it's multi-faceted. It basically catapulted her into her own person. I wish they could have gotten us on more on the actress' side before it happened, though. It also really suffers after so many years of rape stories that weren't taken seriously. It almost doesn't even matter if it's done well or not because of that.

And I like dark, so that aspect doesn't bother me.
I like dark and profound drama, too. IMO, it's just too much here within one small family unit ... and so far they haven't been able to handle what they're dishing out (probably partially due to writer chnages but all the same). I think they'll do at least a fair job by the rape, and I agree with your points about the story but IMO there were others way to get to the same point (IMO, Bo's death alone could have done it for Ciara if written well). If this was rape isolated from all the other drama, I wouldn't even be complaining. This is like Shakespeare on crack.


It's a terrible excuse, but yeah - the writer changes have really made a mess of things. I think Griffith would be this dark regardless, but hopefully when able to see a story through to the end, he does fallout better that what we saw Dec-Feb. Unfortunately, we didn't get the fallout with Dena and now we're right back to the dark.
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Kevc1980
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Pretty good show today.. I loved the Ciara and Theo stuff.. VJ is doing a great job with the rape aftermath! The scenes with Hope and Ciara were so well written and acted.. In fact, I just loved Hope today. The Steve and Hope scenes were wonderful. It was so nice to hear Bo mentioned a few times and to hear that Aiden tried to kill Hope. Really feel that got washed under the rug.

Kaya and Ava was all kinds of awesome. Excellent performances by MBE and TB. The story has been terrible, I tuned out for it. But with Griffith doing the aftermath I'm here for it. The slap and punch were epic.. Also, nice to see JJ.

Chase and Andre was creepy.. I actually skipped a few of these scenes.

The location shot was amazing!! Can we get more please.. Please redeem this story Griffith. I want to have faith. Please no more Egg Babies..
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Hugo


I really love watching Steve and Hope sit and talk about their feelings.
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lisawinnie
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How is Ciara turning 18 I through she was younger then claire
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DrewHamilton
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lisawinnie
Feb 23 2016, 10:24 AM
How is Ciara turning 18 I through she was younger then claire
When the kids were aged, Ciara, Theo, Joey and Chase were aged to 16-17. Claire was only aged to 15. So now Claire is younger than Ciara. I actually hate when soaps do this, but it isn't the first time. Shawn should be older than Brady. Max should be older than Sami and Eric. Abigail should be older than Belle and Philip. It happens.

In Claire and Ciara's case, it sucks because I don't think the show will ever be able to touch upon the fact that Claire has Zack's liver from the transplant after he was killed. That could be an awesome part of Claire's character, but I see no way they can do that since Ciara is now older than Claire, and Ciara and Zack were never alive at the same time. Ciara was Bo and Hope's miracle baby after Zack already died.
Edited by DrewHamilton, Feb 23 2016, 10:38 AM.
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Kyrai
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esp13
Feb 22 2016, 11:10 PM
AngelaP
Feb 22 2016, 11:05 PM
esp13
Feb 22 2016, 10:52 PM
It's not about being fierce or not. She said no, she tried to leave. He pushed her down on the couch and raped her. Once she said no, everything else is irrelevant.

It is absolutely shocking to me that in this day and age, people are still saying "but she didn't fight back" or even "I wish she would have fought back." She said no and he forced her. That's ALL that matters.
I don't feel like there's anything wrong with me saying "I wish they had written her to (Mike Tyson) fight back" especially with how I compounded that statement in that post. I didn't in the least imply that the lack of that meant she wanted it, asked for it, let it happen, etc by not fighting back. It's simply a beat I would have liked to have been scripted in.

Re: Fierce. I was simply putting out that a person you could see fighting tooth and nail in a situation like that could just as easily freeze in the situation as a person you would describe as meek. Vice versa, it is irrelevant - fighting/freezing. I didn't say it wasn't.
The problem with the "I wish she would have fought back" is the implication that it's a disappointment if she didn't. That there's something missing/wrong/not as good if the victim doesn't fight back.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it sounds. And unfortunately there are too many people who do think that it's somehow a character flaw if she doesn't fight back.

ETA - if the discussions being had on this board about Ciara and even Steve aren't evidence that this country hasn't come close to dealing with its rape culture then I don't know what is. And it definitely proves that storylines like Ciara's are still needed and still relevant.
I almost always agree with you, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting Ciara to have fought back. I'm thinking they played the shock angle because Ciara would have kicked his ass, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to have seen her kick him.

Whether she does or doesn't, doesn't make it any less rape.

Similarly, I would have preferred Steve exhaust other possibilities than sleep with Ava, but I still feel he was coerced/raped.

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Hamilton
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Steve and Hope meeting up at the bar was weird. I thought that a bad choice. I liked them sharing a scene and I liked Steve honestly confiding in Hope, but overall it was flat because what was it other than Steve recounting what happened and then they moved on. Im glad Hope didn't judge Steve especially considering her current predicament, but I think the commiserating over a drink was just oddly placed in the episode.

Kayla getting in some physical expressions of her hatred toward Ava was cathartic to this miserable storyline.

So Hope actually called the aunt about taking Chase. Interesting tidbit of information.

Andre and Chase bonding is just too creepy. Andre excited over the fact Chase slept with Ciara was disturbing. I like none of this.

Summer is my favorite season so it pains me to say, I dread Summer. I dread everything coming with this storyline.

Theo lying to cover for Ciara was really cute. I do enjoy watching their friendship developed more. It feels authentic.
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esp13
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Kyrai
Feb 23 2016, 10:38 AM
esp13
Feb 22 2016, 11:10 PM
AngelaP
Feb 22 2016, 11:05 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
The problem with the "I wish she would have fought back" is the implication that it's a disappointment if she didn't. That there's something missing/wrong/not as good if the victim doesn't fight back.

Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it sounds. And unfortunately there are too many people who do think that it's somehow a character flaw if she doesn't fight back.

ETA - if the discussions being had on this board about Ciara and even Steve aren't evidence that this country hasn't come close to dealing with its rape culture then I don't know what is. And it definitely proves that storylines like Ciara's are still needed and still relevant.
I almost always agree with you, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting Ciara to have fought back. I'm thinking they played the shock angle because Ciara would have kicked his ass, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to have seen her kick him.

Whether she does or doesn't, doesn't make it any less rape.

Similarly, I would have preferred Steve exhaust other possibilities than sleep with Ava, but I still feel he was coerced/raped.

Here's my problem with it. Imagine Ciara standing in front of you and you say "gee, I wish you would have fought back. I mean, he still raped you, but I really wish you'd have kicked him in the balls." Now, imagine what Ciara would feel (I know she's fictional, just go with me here) hearing that? She's going to feel like she SHOULD have done something else, like it's her fault that she didn't.

Now, before people start telling me these are fictional characters and it's just a soap, I know that. Ciara can't really feel anything about anything we say. I get it. But this storyline is an opportunity for educating people. So, I'm going to respond to things - however innocently meant - that perpetuate stereotypes of rape victims and what they should or shouldn't have done.

Is there anything "wrong" with wishing she had fought back? Maybe not. But to the extent it, however unintentionally, conveys a message that she should have, or could have fought back and it would have made a difference it can be a dangerous message to send.
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Kyrai
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esp13
Feb 23 2016, 10:57 AM
Kyrai
Feb 23 2016, 10:38 AM
esp13
Feb 22 2016, 11:10 PM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
I almost always agree with you, but I don't see anything wrong with wanting Ciara to have fought back. I'm thinking they played the shock angle because Ciara would have kicked his ass, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have liked to have seen her kick him.

Whether she does or doesn't, doesn't make it any less rape.

Similarly, I would have preferred Steve exhaust other possibilities than sleep with Ava, but I still feel he was coerced/raped.

Here's my problem with it. Imagine Ciara standing in front of you and you say "gee, I wish you would have fought back. I mean, he still raped you, but I really wish you'd have kicked him in the balls." Now, imagine what Ciara would feel (I know she's fictional, just go with me here) hearing that? She's going to feel like she SHOULD have done something else, like it's her fault that she didn't.

Now, before people start telling me these are fictional characters and it's just a soap, I know that. Ciara can't really feel anything about anything we say. I get it. But this storyline is an opportunity for educating people. So, I'm going to respond to things - however innocently meant - that perpetuate stereotypes of rape victims and what they should or shouldn't have done.

Is there anything "wrong" with wishing she had fought back? Maybe not. But to the extent it, however unintentionally, conveys a message that she should have, or could have fought back and it would have made a difference it can be a dangerous message to send.
I'm afraid I disagree with the whole argument. I wouldn't stand in front of any rape victim and say, 'Gee, I wish you'd have fought back'.

I had a co-worker who was the sole survivor of a serial rapist. She credited it to prayer. She said she just laid there praying, then he just left. He didn't kill her when he killed all the other victims. It was viewed as a miracle by her and others. It worked for her, but I hardly think all rape victims should lie there and pray to survive.

There is no right or wrong answer to what would happen in any given situation. Fighting back could let you get away or make things worse. Lying there, could make things better or worse. I'm not saying, 'Wow, Ciara should have fought back and this wouldn't have happened'. I'm saying, it's a show, and I'd have liked for her to have fought back.

I'd like to have seen Steve do more, BUT I can't argue that he wasn't worried Ava would have killed Kayla, so he did what he felt he had to. I may have wanted to see something different, but I'm not changing what happened.

How I would have preferred Ciara's or Steve's scenes to have played out, have no bearing on the rape. It has to do with how I feel about a show I'm watching. I think folks feel what they feel, and we're not trying to make any kind of statement about a rape victim. But I'm fine with disagreeing on this.
Edited by Kyrai, Feb 23 2016, 11:23 AM.
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wallflower
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LuvingLumi
Feb 22 2016, 11:12 PM
Half Halt
Feb 22 2016, 10:02 PM
Daysalltheway
Feb 22 2016, 09:34 PM
I haven't watched any of last week yet but why did they have to go there with chase and Ciara? Man, I think I'm out with this show.
I'm not out with this show, but the whole Chase on Ciara thing was so stupid. Come on! No way would the Ciara we all know let Chase rape her. She did nothing! Seriously? She would have made a soprano out of him. FFS!!!

The writing for this show has been so bad, remains to be bad, and is only going to get worse with you know who.........
"LET"???

Goodness gracious...and this folks is the reason why teens and young adults don't report rapes. They go unreported more than 50% of the time....why? because people still think that women who don't 'fight these guys off' somehow are stupid and weak...

No disrespect but your statement is completely uncalled for. She doesn't have to do anything, she said NO, that was the ONLY THING she needed to say to stop him and he refused to stop....she was overpowered and raped against her will. She did not consent to sex, again she said NO. He covered her mouth and pinned her and raped her.

A woman doesn't 'let' a guy rape her...she might 'let' a guy have sex with her...but the minute it's rape it's not consensual....PERIOD....let's please make this distinction CLEAR.

Yes. Chase pinned her down and overpowered her. So no matter how tough she may seem, I`m thinking she was probably in shock that thiis was happening to her and the one doing it was someone she knew and trusted.

When I looked at Ciara`s face she looked very scared and hurt that Chase would do this to her.

I can`t speak for everybody but I can say that`s how felt when it happened to me and I thought the actress did a pretty good job with it.

Also, I think it was esp13 who said in a post that this discussion even shows how rape is still not being dealt with in this country and I agree.

I still don`t feel comfortable talking about being date raped about 25 years ago because I`m afraid people still are going to blame me. Hell, even I put some of the blame on myself.

All I know is it scared the hell out of me even though he didn`t have a weapon and I didn`t think fighting back was going to do any good.

I was a grown woman so I can`t imagine how a teenager would feel.

FYI Like Ciara, I didn`t report it either. But thank God for my Mom who I could always talk to and tell her ANYTHING. I miss her so much..
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wallflower
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ssedai2
Feb 22 2016, 11:19 PM
wallflower
Feb 22 2016, 02:27 PM
Ken Adams
Feb 22 2016, 02:10 PM
Last time I checked the drinking age was still 21 so turning 18 in a few doesn't cut it.
There are a few states out there where the age is 18 but at least one of thpse says that`s only for beer.

However, since Salem seems to be close to Chicago, the age there is 19 even for just beer.
Unless they lowered it, Illinois/Chicago is 21 or at least for the first 33 years of my life.
Yes. I replied to Ken Adams in an earlier post and I explained that I realized my information was wrong because I misread an article earllier yesterday on Google.

I`m wiping the egg from my face on that still.
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lysie


Kyrai
Feb 23 2016, 11:22 AM
esp13
Feb 23 2016, 10:57 AM
Kyrai
Feb 23 2016, 10:38 AM

Quoting limited to 3 levels deep
Here's my problem with it. Imagine Ciara standing in front of you and you say "gee, I wish you would have fought back. I mean, he still raped you, but I really wish you'd have kicked him in the balls." Now, imagine what Ciara would feel (I know she's fictional, just go with me here) hearing that? She's going to feel like she SHOULD have done something else, like it's her fault that she didn't.

Now, before people start telling me these are fictional characters and it's just a soap, I know that. Ciara can't really feel anything about anything we say. I get it. But this storyline is an opportunity for educating people. So, I'm going to respond to things - however innocently meant - that perpetuate stereotypes of rape victims and what they should or shouldn't have done.

Is there anything "wrong" with wishing she had fought back? Maybe not. But to the extent it, however unintentionally, conveys a message that she should have, or could have fought back and it would have made a difference it can be a dangerous message to send.
I'm afraid I disagree with the whole argument. I wouldn't stand in front of any rape victim and say, 'Gee, I wish you'd have fought back'.

I had a co-worker who was the sole survivor of a serial rapist. She credited it to prayer. She said she just laid there praying, then he just left. He didn't kill her when he killed all the other victims. It was viewed as a miracle by her and others. It worked for her, but I hardly think all rape victims should lie there and pray to survive.

There is no right or wrong answer to what would happen in any given situation. Fighting back could let you get away or make things worse. Lying there, could make things better or worse. I'm not saying, 'Wow, Ciara should have fought back and this wouldn't have happened'. I'm saying, it's a show, and I'd have liked for her to have fought back.

I'd like to have seen Steve do more, BUT I can't argue that he wasn't worried Ava would have killed Kayla, so he did what he felt he had to. I may have wanted to see something different, but I'm not changing what happened.

How I would have preferred Ciara's or Steve's scenes to have played out, have no bearing on the rape. It has to do with how I feel about a show I'm watching. I think folks feel what they feel, and we're not trying to make any kind of statement about a rape victim. But I'm fine with disagreeing on this.
I understand what you're saying. I just think this is a tricky topic. It's kind of hard to make a statement on it without it coming across as a statement about rape. Mostly because anything you (the general "you") say about it ends up being really similar to things that are already said to bring down rape victims, even if that's nowhere near the intent now. In regards to Ciara, they really didn't show much of the rape. So while we didn't see her fight back, we also missed huge chunks of what happened. Ultimately in any rape scene it would be preferable to see the rapist get overpowered by the victim at some point, but that's not particularly realistic.

I find it more problematic to talk about how her reaction is different from what's expected based on her personality (or the personality she had as a child). That completely negates context and emotions.
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Hennifer
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Rosebud
Feb 22 2016, 02:48 PM
LOL Casey Moss is basically taking the job of the extra who plays the cop that shows up at a crime scene.
I'm embarrassed to say I thought that he was just an "extra" cop and I didn't realize until the last scene when Roman said his name that it was actually JJ.
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